Dr. DonG.'s Deafhood Discourses - Latest Comments in “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

Joseph Pietro Riolo — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:21:36 -0000

This comment is especially for the person identified by "native asl/ci parent and child".

I read some of the comments over at http://aslci.blogspot.com/ in response to your comment that quoted a portion of my post. I want to let you know that I do acknowledge and respect their views and thoughts. While I wish to continue the dialogue, I don't think that anything more from me will be beneficial for you and the people who shared their thoughts. Please don’t misinterpret my silence as rejection of dialogue. I am still open to dialogue but perhaps, this is not a good time for it. ("A time to be silent, a time to discuss.") Maybe, in the future, we can have dialogue. Maybe not.

Meanwhile, live and let live.

Joseph Pietro Riolo
josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com

Public domain notice: I put all of my expressions in this post in the public domain.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

ElephantInTheRoom — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:44:08 -0000

Pardon my Christian perspective -- I love the way you ended this message.. I have just one thing to add:

AG Bell is laughing at us, yes, but he is burning in hell at the same time. Maybe we can feel comforted that he gets a bit of "relaxation" from constant torment and flames, by laughing at the Deaf Community.

Poor AGB -- Roasting, Toasting, Broiling, Frying, Barbecue... (but I don't want to eat that garbage!)

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

K.L. — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:32:09 -0000

Native asl/ci parent and child asked me to come over here and add my two cents. I understand why some people dislike the cochlear implant, but I cannot agree with them. The potential benefits for the individual child outweigh the impact to the Deaf Community. As a parent, my responsibility is to my child, and ONLY to my child. I need to give her as many tools as I can so she can navigate in this world as easily as possible. If she can have hearing AND sign, then that benefits her.

It does me no good to debate this with people. If they want to hear my views, fine. If they want to ask questions, fine. If they want to dialog, fine. If they want to tell me why I am wrong, I will leave. I don't have time for that. I have no interest in arguing. I obviously won't change my mind, and I have no great interest in trying to change other people's minds. As far as I'm concerned, it makes no difference if the other person is against implants in general, or against the people who have them. I will shield my child from them. The potential for emotional damage is just too great for her. She will have plenty of time when she grows up to deal with that negativism. Not now.

So if you want to engage me in conversation about the implant, don't start by telling me how much you dislike it. Even if you don't reject the person, it will come across that way. A good example would be Aiden Mack. I actually have a great deal of respect and admiration for her and what she has accomplished. However, even though I know she does not dislike people with implants, I will not allow my child around her for fear that her beliefs will leak out and confuse my child. I simply choose not to socialize with people who dislike my choices and how I raise my child. They have a complete right to their beliefs, but I don't need to be subjected to them.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

Karen Mayes — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:31:13 -0000

Okay, just making sure... so you were commenting to another commenter.

Deafhood is just a personal journey for each of us and we approach it differently. We agree or disagree, comparing, judging, etc... human nature. I have my own experiences which define how I think, same as your own experiences defining your thinking process. Right or wrong? Nope.

By the way, Candy is very smart... she knows what is she talking about.

Okay, have a good week.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

Betty — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 04:19:49 -0000

we are agreed with you, Similar in England, BDA in England not clear structure , still control hearing people are colonism with Deaf People are more criticism to Deaf People.

I have been experience spoiled to Favoritism with other Deaf lead.

thank you very much

Betty

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

Candy — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:08:29 -0000

Elena, I have had lots of discussions with several close friends who happen to be black. Trust me, that view is a cop out. Look at what Obama is saying to black people in the news today. He's saying take responsibility for your actions. Your view is based on DH which I do not see in the same light as you do.

I'm not racist. Never have been. And never will be. But, I can't change the way you think about me, which is ok.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

native asl/ci parent and child — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:40:32 -0000

J Pietro-Riolo and DonG, let me answer to your comments and questions later. I'd like to give the ASL/CI Community the opportunity to respond.

DonG, I look forwad to yor vlog about why you are into Deafhood. I genuinely want to understand.

I have a bumper sticker on my car that says C O E X I S T. I must practice what I preach.

Adios!

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

DrDonG — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 22:45:26 -0000

Mishka,

No, asking for transparency is not horizontal violence. Like I think Drolz said, if you are questioning their procedures or want to make constructive suggestions for how they could be improved, that is one thing.

But, name-calling, slurs, posting of documents making people seem bad (and not pointing out that one's self was engaging in similar behavior), and just the general tone of what's been all over the blogs in the comments definitely is.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

Mishkazena — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 22:34:45 -0000

Curious here. Do you see me asking DBC to become more transparency a form of horizontal violence?

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

DrDonG — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 22:19:31 -0000

Joseph P.R. --

You actually do have a good point. Word choices can and do blind people to the ideas behind what people are trying to say. I'd be interested in NACIP&C;'s response -- it could be helpful to work through our perceptual differences.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

DrDonG — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 22:17:08 -0000

NACIP&C; -

Go to my very first vlog at http://www.deafhooddiscours.... I told some about myself and my upbringing there. Or are you asking for more specifics? I was born Deaf, but with a hearing aid, I could hear well in the "hard of hearing" range (whatever that really means -- it's a very muddled concept that NOBODY can really agree on, even in the scientific research), but I was never really able to use the phone well or participate in spoken conversations with more than one person, so I consider myself Deaf for that reason. But, actually, I am planning to do a vlog really soon on why I am into Deafhood. Thanks for alerting me to Candy's blog. I'm going to go over there and check it out now.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

Joseph Pietro Riolo — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:59:41 -0000

I have been pondering on several comments made by the person identified as "native asl/ci parent and child". I think I understand how he or she (I could not determine or remember the gender, my apology to the person) feels on how you express your opposing position toward cochlear implant. He feels free to correct me if I am wrong, slightly or totally.

When you said that you are against cochlear implant, exactly what do you mean by that? (I am fully aware of the distinction between ideas and people who happen to practice the same ideas.) Does it mean that you desire the technology of cochlear implant to be banned and outlawed? Does it mean that you believe in being active against the cochlear implant through whatever means that are available to you (i.e. write a letter to representative to stop insurances from paying the cost of cochlear implant, look for ways to make the cochlear implant look bad by collecting bad experiences with cochlear implant, trying to persuade people to see cochlear implant as an audist thing)? When you said that you are against cochlear implant, does it mean that if you happen to have the power to set the direction of deaf education, you would steer it away from cochlear implant?

Or, when you said that you are against cochlear implant, do you mean that you do not see it as a good thing according to your own personal perspective? Does it mean that you have strong dislike toward cochlear implant? If you intend any of those, I think that changing your words would clarify your position immensely. Instead of saying that you are against cochlear implant, you can say that you don't like it or don't want to use it. This will emphasize that the relationship between you and cochlear implant is totally personal and that your feelings toward the cochlear implant are limited to the personal relationship only. When you use the word "against", the scope of your feelings toward cochlear implant goes beyond your personal relationship and affects the interpersonal relationships.

I would like "native asl/ci parent and child" to teach us how to approach him or her in respect to the sensitive topic on cochlear implant. Will changing words help (i.e. use "dislike" instead of "against")? Will changing tone help (I realize that it is difficult to convey right tone through written communication and this may mean that high verbosity may be necessary)? What are the other ways to maintain civility during the informal communication? (Extreme formality such as in court or debate is required for obvious reasons – to keep the discourse extremely civil. But, how can civility be possible in the informal situations like this thread of discussion?)

In the interest of full disclosure especially for "native asl/ci parent and child", I do not like cochlear implant but I keep it to myself. I have my own personal philosophy toward cochlear implant. However, I personally believe that parents have the freedom of choice and this freedom overrides my personal feelings about cochlear implant. The freedom of choice that the adults and older kids enjoy also overrides my personal feelings.

Joseph Pietro Riolo
josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com

Public domain notice: I put all of my expressions in this post in the public domain.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

native asl/ci parent and child — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:04:02 -0000

Yo, DonG. You are becoming popular. Go to: http://candy.blogono.com/20...

Important what? Keep an open mind. Hear 'em out.

They're not just a small group. The majority of my Deaf of Deaf friends do not read DR nor DV. They are clueless as to what's going on, but they do share similiar views as those commenters in Candy's blog.

There is no one right perspective. Your perspective is just a perspective based on your life journey. I do not agree with your perspective but it is valid because it represents your experience.

I'll go now.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

Elena — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 19:48:55 -0000

Candy, I'm appalled at your resistance against Dr.DonG 's parallel comparison of the Deaf community with the African-American community-- really, your words held an obvious tone of racism which was totally appalling to me, as well as clear ignorance that's probably rooted in a general lack of knowledge about the history of oppressed groups and the ramifications of the oppression towards such groups. DonG was utilizing an accurate comparison of one oppressed group to another, both of which have undergone intensive colonization, with such effects lasting into the present, including horizontal violence (a direct consequence of the disruption and divisiveness caused by colonialism). I suggest you open your mind to realizing the parallels between oppressed, colonized groups in order to better understand what we Deaf activists are fighting for and the our principles behind our battles.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

native asl/ci parent and child — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 19:42:29 -0000

Catching up here after being the chauffeur getting kids to their camps crossing two state lines. Deaf proverbs, thank you for your support and i am delighted to see someone with CI kid/s other than me advocating for true bilingualism without deafhood, anti-ci, anti-agb rhetoric in the Deaf blogosphere.

DonG, hmmmm..... this discourse is a part of our Deafhood process? I think I am somwhat allergic to the word "Deafhood" I like "Deaf identity" better, I guess.

The hijacking and twisting by the 'hood namely the trio and their loyal followers have ruined any possibility of me opening up to the idea of a Deaf related process.

Do not fret over Candy. She has dry humor. Deaf parents. She's pretty intelligent and well integrated emotionally possibly based on her positive upbringing as a Deaf/hoh person.

DonG, I am curious about your upbringing. I understand that you were raised oral until you enrolled MSSD at age 13. Are you hard of hearing or are you deaf? Yeah, I am starting to see the need for a process, but I doubt it is or all of us as some of us grew up with Deaf parents and signed ASL in the home. Would you care to do a vlog one day explaining your background for us all to better understand why you are so into Deafhood?

Rambling on . . . but thanks for listening while I process my thoughts.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

DrDonG — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:44:34 -0000

Karen, I didn't say anything to you about dividing. I'm not sure where I said it, if I said it, but if I did, it must have been to some other commenter.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

Candy — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:35:20 -0000

As usual everyone throws words out of proportion.

DonG is just upset because everyone wants these DBC core members to start taking responsibility.

So, try to divert things all you want DonG.

That's the bottom line.

Your goal is for everyone to move on and leave these DBC core members alone. Yet, the goals of many are different, thus all the discourse on the blogs/vlogs. Don't stop the due process.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

Karen Mayes — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:33:20 -0000

Huh, you accused me of dividing? Or are you talking to other commneter?

DeafRead/Deafhood/etc have both unifying and divisive forces, depending on our perspectives.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

Candy — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:32:04 -0000

Observer, if you've notice, I wasn't the first to say asshole. It was just for emphasis and dry humor. Read carefully.

And, DonG, everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of what's said. If you felt I was borderline uncivil, then you must be, too.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

DrDonG — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:12:54 -0000

"Dan" (if that's even your real name -- I noticed the email address you gave me doesn't seem to work),

YOU are a big hypocrite! You talk about rejecting "diversity", when YOU made fun of me and my viewpoints, including calling me names like "nerd"! YOU are an instigator of horizontal violence toward the Deaf community. YOU are like a junior member of a wolfpack, jumping in again and again to nip at your prey. It is people like YOU that are causing problems in our Deaf community, not Deafhood. You are part of the reason why I decided to make this post, because YOU are a divisive influence!

Take a good long look in the mirror at YOURSELF before you start pointing fingers at anyone else!

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

Deafproverbs — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:31:56 -0000

native asl/ci parent and ci child

You said it beautifully! I am stuggling to keep hope for our future children who will grow and become our leaders. My hope for them is to embrace the diveristy in the deaf community (CI, non CI, D/deaf, and etc..) without the today's attitude/influences.

Today, there are nearly 80% deaf kids in public/mainstream schools. Those kids.. who will speak for them? Who will make their parents feeling welcomed and comfortable in the deaf community?? NOT those leaders in DBC!!

I am leaving this - letting it go - and go enjoy my beautiful children before they are all grown up and face those ugly and disturbing facts among those type of people.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

Dan — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:56:41 -0000

Deafhood, Deaf cults including YOU started dividing the Deaf community. They rejected DIVERSITY and MAJORITY.

That is a main reason.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

Karen Mayes — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:28:25 -0000

I just looked at the comments you requested. Okay, I get you.

It is just that I am concerned for the future deaf generations... more and more babies receive CIs and now my son has been expressing an interest in getting CIs (I say no, not as long as his hearing aids benefit him, but I know it is a matter of time before his progressive hearing loss gets worse before we'd seriously discuss it.) I was AGAINST the idea of CI until I went to the workshop in Rochester, NY, several years ago where I listened to the panelists and my perspective changed since then. Like everyone else, I am still waiting for the official statistics on CIs (guess it won't happen for a decade or so...)

The way I see it... CIs are here to say. Genetic engineering... stem cells... what would be next for us? We can always choose to fight or to accept the inevitable future for the generational deaf families, like mine? (my kids are 5th generation, but has nothing to do with this discussion.) There is a rapidly growing statistics of late deafened adults (baby boomers.)

There are many factors, ifs, shoulds, shouldnots, etc. We could debate forever, but we have to face the facts, that it is happening before our eyes... good or bad. Yesterday I just learned that the stats of deaf students with special needs at Indiana School for the Deaf jumped to 67% from 52%... There is a great need for deaf teachers with certification in special education (not deaf education... we have plenty of certification in deaf education), etc.

*shrug* So I look at my kids and I wonder what the future would hold for them. Deafhood... sigh. My children have their own journeys as deaf people and I only hope that they'd turn out just fine.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

DrDonG — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:13:53 -0000

NACIPAC,

I've said it before, and I'm saying it again. Please LISTEN (literally and figuratively). I am opposed to CI for what it represents -- the audist imposition of their worldview on the Deaf community. As a Deaf person from a Deaf family, I think you can understand about that perception. I am not opposed to YOU, or your son as Deaf people, even with your implants. I suspect if we could sit down and talk together, we would be fine with each other.

Part of the problem, I think, is that in the beginning, and maybe even now, some people reacted to CI users and expressed their opposition to what the CI represents as antagonism toward the CI person themselves. This is unfortunate, and I think much of your feelings about the Deaf community comes from those reactions.

By all means, stand up for what you believe about the CI for yourself and your community. As long as we are engaging in civil discourse, maybe we all will be able to work out whether we can come to a mutual agreement on what role, if any, the CI has within the Deaf community.

Re: “Horizontal Violence” and the Deaf Community

DrDonG — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:56:58 -0000

Karen,

Will you PLEASE go back to my "Deafhood is a cult" post and look at my last two comments, and you will see that my comment about Ben being a "kid" has NOTHING to do with his age and EVERYTHING to do with how he was behaving. A few other people were behaving VERY immaturely as well, and Dan brought it to the nadir of immaturity. So stop harping on my supposed "ageism".

However, you and I have disagreed, no question. But your comments were always presented in a mature manner. I am not against ANYBODY discussing their viewpoint, as long as they can present themselves in a mature, rational manner. Discussion and debate is part of the blogosphere, and it is part of the process of Deafhood, as Joseph Santini said in his guest vlog on Ben's site.