Dr. DonG.'s Deafhood Discourses - Latest Comments in Why bother hiding hearing aids?

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

DrDonG — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 16:20:33 -0000

I'll think about it, and you do raise interesting questions. Just gotta think about what I would say. Have to wait for the muse to inspire me.

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

mcconnell — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:17:36 -0000

No, no political angle here but simply about the discussion on the affects of Deaf tokenism, ADA, and Affirmative Action and whether it hurts or helps people. You are the one who sees this as a political angle as an excuse/justification to not want to discuss this. It's a social issue. Any social issues you bring up, Don, can be laden with political questions anyway. Even Deaf social issues. I understand if you can't tackle this issue.

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

DrDonG — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:19:20 -0000

You're right, in that AA doesn't apply to just race. My point is that your take on it is of the more political angle (conservative vs. liberal) rather than on whether it is beneficial to Deaf or not.

But I will consider your comments and MAYBE it will show up in a vlog sometime later.

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

mcconnell — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:53:36 -0000

Um, Don, affirmative action applies to any minority and disability groups to help them give a leg up on competition. It does not pertain to only people of race. In fact, there are affirmative action plans for the hiring and promoting of qualified people with disabilities, including those with hearing loss.

Now, Deaf issues do include talks about tokenism and/or affirmative action issues that pertains to Deaf people who are affected by those things. And it's interesting that you have included political questions pertaining to one deafness issue covering ADA. Perhaps you have not realized that Section 504 and ADA are tightly inter-related under the subject of affirmative action? You can thank Section 504 and ADA that have allowed you to be where you are and work as an equal.

The question is whether affirmative action has hurt more people than it did help over those who are truly qualifed versus those who are merely "qualified." This includes the hiring of Deaf people, too. Might be a good subject to bring up on your next vlog. After all, your specialty area includes "Deaf Education-Bilingual/Bicultural Education and Literacy."

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

DrDonG — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 10:50:12 -0000

McConnell --

Affirmative Action, when properly applied, is a good thing. It is a fact that minority groups have been prevented from acquiring jobs in favor of the White majority, or from promotions due to their race. It's not's not an issue of "tokenism over talent", but the corporation in question still can make token gestures of inclusion without truly recognizing the value of diversity.

But that is a political question which belongs on a political blog, and we are here to discuss Deaf issues....

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

mcconnell — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 09:27:45 -0000

So, i am guessing that you also support affirmative action, then? Tokenism over talent?

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

DrDonG — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 00:55:56 -0000

I am Associate Professor and Coordinator of the Deaf Studies Program at the California State University, Sacramento. When I was hired, I was the only Deaf person in the Department (Full-time) and probably at the University. So I guess in a way, one could view me as a token, even though I am fully qualified for the job. I was probably hired in part because I am Deaf.

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

mcconnell — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 23:22:23 -0000

Again, about the tokenism issue, Don. What is your position and who or what do you work for? Are you a hired Deaf token who holds a doctorate degree?

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

Toby — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:15:52 -0000

I didn't read all the comments, but I wanted to add my two cents that I'm excited to get my next pair of hearing aids, and I want them to be as brightly colored as possible, and still look like hearing aids. I realized that the fact that I am deaf is not visible enough to hearing people, time to make it clear.

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

Candy — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:20:25 -0000

We know many companies put money back into the community that supports them such as donation to Gallaudet and NTID.

I don't know the specifics, will have to look it up. But, I bet it's right there in Gallaudet and NTID's list of donors.

I'm kind of baffled by your thinking, DonG.

People buy things based on need and/or want. Free enterprise. And, I don't think the majority of people (including the minorities) expects something back from companies that they buy things from.

Most companies see a demand for things and fullfill it. I for one, am forever grateful for these hearing aid companies that provide hearing aids to people like me. I don't expect anything back, except, perhaps a FREE hearing aid! ;)

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

mcconnell — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 12:01:14 -0000

Hearing aid and cochlear implant companies target two different groups. One group that can benefit from hearing aids and one that get very little or no benefit from hearing aids, of course. Who else would they target? This isn't a branding target based on a popular clothing style like Nike aimed at a certain ethnic group which has nothing to do with necessity but the status quo. MZ said it well by saying that most Deaf adults are not major consumers of these cochlear implants. And to a good degree many Deaf adults are not hearing aid consumers simply because hearing aids do not benefit them at all. So, it makes sense these companies donate money or offer scholarships to groups that obviously can and do benefit from their products.

This is not about me refusing to see what you're saying. It’s a simple matter of me not seeing the parallel because it doesn’t make any sense to me at all. If it did, then I’d see it but I don’t in this case. It’s apples and oranges here. There is no real parallel to the hearing aid or cochlear implant side to that of clothing desire (and not a need) of blacks. Buying a $120 Nike shoe is not a clothing need, it’s a want, which is a highly coveted and stylish product to have. Yet you can still get the same benefit by buying a $20 dollar pair of shoes. It's about the status quo in order to be a part of the “in crowd” which is not a need but rather a want issue here. This is why I don’t buy your parallel example. Just as wheel chair companies focus on groups that have a need for wheelchairs. This is the same for prescription glasses or contact lens. We’re dealing with medical products that provide a certain need to a particular group of people. So, if a hearing aid or cochlear implant does not or will not benefit a Deaf person then why complain where the money is going to? Why complain about the so called lack of Deaf executive in a cochlear implant company if the Deaf community at large would feel that a cochlear implant offers no real benefit for a Deaf person? Wouldn’t a Deaf executive at a cochlear implant company simply be seen as a traitor in the eyes of the Deaf community? I see this as a simple matter of Deaf politics at play and the sense of entitlement at work here. You seem to focus on the things you cannot have versus the things that you can do and have control over.

Speaking of tokenism, what is your position at work? Tokenism is like affirmative action which I’m against. Affirmative action is simply reparation in disguise designed to redress effects of actual or perceived past discrimination that was regarded as unfair. It’s talent and not tokenism we want and affirmative action simply hurts more than it does help. If you can get the job done and do very well then that’s all there is to it. You don’t simply hire somebody because he or she is different outside of the person’s ability to do the job. It wouldn’t matter if you happen to be the only Deaf/deaf/hh person in a company. If you are provided appropriate accommodations and you are able to get the job done just as well or better than your co-workers then you are a valuable worker and not a token one. I personally know a Deaf person who is a good friend of mine who works at corporation where he travels all across the globe doing contracting work worth millions. He is certainly not a token Deaf person. This company hired him based on his impressive resume and they already knew he was deaf. So, I’d be careful nowadays on the tokenism issue which a slippery slope issue to be sure.

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

DrDonG — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:47:38 -0000

MZ --

I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere down the line, somehow, the CI companies are sponsoring the oral programs and AVT clinics. It would be self-defeating of them not to, wouldn't it?

McConnell --

It is totally apt -- you just refuse to see it in the proper light. You claim hearing aids/CI are desirable and a necessity. Fine. So is clothing. So is an IPod. So are cigarettes for those who smoke. The companies have and do target certain items (Nike basketball shoes, anyone?) to the Black community in particular as well as to the general society. The hearing aid/CI companies are targeting you, parents of Deaf children, and anyone else they think might have an interest in their product (which is certainly limited in its scope of reach). The parallel is there.

But I can see that you are going to refuse to see what I'm saying. You've said your piece, I've said mine. Find a different nit to pick, please.

As for tokens, they can be qualified and able to do the job, and still be tokens, if they're the only ones there, or one of two or three.

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

mcconnell — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:35:29 -0000

Token? Not if they are qualified and can do the job.

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

mcconnell — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:11:18 -0000

"The Black analogy is apt — Blacks need clothes or want the products that are being sold, just like the Whites do, don’t they?"

I'm sorry, Don. It is not apt. You can try but it is not an apt one, far from it. Hearing aids and cochlear implants are sold to those who need them regardless of race or anything else. If you have a hearing loss and have a need for an audiological device you buy it because you do have a need for it. Simple. You are attempting to turn this into a Deaf political issue solely because there is no Deaf executive on board. Remember, the population of Deaf people is in the very small minority compared to the rest of the hearing loss population.

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

Mishkazena — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:30:12 -0000

Don... I'm not sure as I'm not in the habit of studying c.i. companies. I stumbled on this fact recently..at least one position is in the management, but in the lower or upper level, I don't know.

I know what you mean. AGBell doesn't represent the Deaf Community, however, in the eyes of c.i. corporations, their donations which amounts to six figures per company, still help the deaf community.. this time. the oral deaf community. So they are still giving back part of their profits back to the community, just not the Deaf Community. Again it's not the adult Deaf Community who are the major consumers of these c.i. products, just the Deaf toddlers/ children who are nowadays mostly trained the oral methods and the older folks who experience loss of hearing due to aging and chronic excessive exposure to loud sounds. Hmm, now to think of it, I don't know if the c.i. companies are also sponsoring the oral educational programs and AVT clinics.

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

dog food — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:19:21 -0000

just wanted to throw a proverbial stick in the fire:

Isn't the leader of AGBell a Deaf cochlear implant user?

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

DrDonG — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 23:55:56 -0000

MZ --

Hiring CI users --- sure, at which level? low entry-level or lower management or upper management (VP or above)

Donating money to AGB -- again, that is not to us, that is to AGB....

Scholarships? Sure, but that is EXTREMELY minimal investment compared to their total income.

McConnell --

The Black analogy is apt -- Blacks need clothes or want the products that are being sold, just like the Whites do, don't they?

I'm all for Deaf people opening up Deaf-owned companies and hiring Deaf people (by the way, what perceentage of Deaf people work at those other companies? Quite few, I'm sure -- tokens, perhaps?

I definitely am not buying their products. If we all did, they'd go out of business boom so fast!

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

mcconnell — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 23:34:15 -0000

Again, John, they do not "owe" Deaf people anything. Using the black analogy is faulty reasoning since getting or buying a hearing aid or cochlear implant is to the benefit of those who get them whether they are deaf or hard of hearing regardless of race. You buy it because it helps you with your career. You buy it because it gives you enjoyment of sound. You buy it because it offers you better interaction with hearing people. You buy it because it help improves your speech and audition and so on. You are thinking in terms of what ought to be "owed" to Deaf people from hearing aid and cochlear implant companies. Balderdash. That would be in a sense a reparation of sorts. Entitlements. And so on. You focus too much on the companies and what they should have on board rather than you go out and bootstrap yourself by opening up a Deaf/deaf owned company with mostly Deaf, deaf or hard of hearing employees. Something that John Yeh and Jason Curry have done. You complain saying that there is no "justice" because those companies do not have Deaf executives? Then don't buy their products.

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

Mishkazena — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:34:25 -0000

Hmm. the most interesting thing is that they showed pictures of ladies wearing lingeries back then. I didn't realize that was permissable at that time ;)

Actually Don, the cochlear implant corporations do hire c.i. users. I am aware of the good jobs offered to several Cochlear volunteers. They also donate a lot of money to Alexander Graham Bell Association for the Deaf and offer financial scholarships to c.i. users.

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

DrDonG — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:35:23 -0000

McConnell --

I'm not talking "reparations" here (although that could be a topic for another day and time, and I think we did have a brief discussion of that idea a few vlogs back somewhere....)

What I am talking about is the money chain ... we purchase the products, and they purchase ours, and the money flows around. Also, do the Hearing Aid and the CI companies have Deaf people in high executive ranks? I would bet not. So the money flows in one direction -- from us to them.

Understand what I'm talking about now? The Black community has been complaining about similar issues for a long time -- stuff is marketed to them, but the money does not flow back to the community on individual or societal levels. As I understand it, that's one reason the FUBU line of clothes was created -- FUBU stands for "For Us, By Us" ("us" being Black people).

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

John Mans — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 20:53:44 -0000

Wow... Very oppressive Deaf Identity. No wonder too long to oppress Deaf comunity for failing to reval a true Deaf Identity for other hundred years. It is good enough to oppress their true Deaf Identity.

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

MM — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:49:06 -0000

'Deaf' do not need hearing aids do they, it is easy for them no longer, or never having been able to utilise aids, to say 'It doesn't bother us'. Their isolation amongst their own peers is ample proof they cannot move out of it, so not under the same sort of pressures those with residual hearing have to face daily, to hear something, anything, and then to try to avoid the ignorance and ridicule some will offer to a visble aid being seen. I fear once again 'Deaf' are trying to speak via non-expeieince and saying "I do OK..." it is all relative, i.e until you as a 'Deaf' person and signing step out on to the street alone and have to manage. Then you are in as poor a position as we are. You can perhaps opt out, we can't, and a lot of us prefer not to. Image is all, I dobnt many Americans would say different ! From what we read over the pond, its your religion..... a number of 'Deaf' claiming it is the force behind CI's.

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

mcconnell — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:39:09 -0000

You need to explain your meaning "come back to us."

This is a problem with some Deaf people who think along entitlements or "rights" and that they are "owed" for something from hearing aid and/or cochlear implant companies. I swear, what you're saying is almost tantamount to a reparation deal. Stop living in the past and move forward. They just sell the products, they don't do any oral therapy or speech training where some have not benefitted from it at all.

Most of the sales of hearing aids are sold mostly to older adults with hearing loss. The same for cochlear implants where more adults receive implants than children. There is nothing that is "owed" to you or to any Deaf group out there that hearing aid or cochlear implant companies must provide. This emotional baggage is going to be many Deaf people's Achilles Heel if they're not careful with it. That sort of thing tend to bite back their rear end. We see this again and again.

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

DrDonG — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:11:01 -0000

McConnell -- Thanks for that research. I don't dispute that currently, hearing aid industry outstrips CI industry since obviously sheer volume alone would account for that. But as you yourself indicated, CI industry isn't too far behind the hearing aid industry.... and if trends continue, then what? Sooner or later there is going to come a point where hearing aid and CI industry incomes reach near parity with each other, where BOTH will be in the billions range.

And meanwhile, what about us Deaf? Do any of us, or our companies see anything like that kind of money? Hardly. Does any of that money the hearing aid and CI companies make off of our bodies come back to us? Virtually nothing, if at all. Says something about society's priorities, doesn't it?

Re: Why bother hiding hearing aids?

mcconnell — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 12:22:27 -0000

Not just one cochlear implant company but all of them, hence "cochlear implant industry." It's a multi-million dollar a year industry, very close or at around a billion dollar a year industry. It is no way at the same level as the hearing aid industry. The volume produced is simply way too high compared to cochlear implants. Cochlear Limited of Australia produces 70% of all cochlear implant sales and they made 480 million in sales in 2007 up from 380 million in 2006.
http://www.cochlear.com.au/...

On sales alone for hearing aids in the United States, in 2007, a little over 1.8 million units were sold. And if we a figure of $1500 (average) per hearing aid then that's 2.7 billion dollars on hearing aids alone...annually! This does not include batteries sold each year which each battery lasts about a week, cost of audiology exams, hearing aid incidentals and cleaning supplies, ear molds (from $30 to $100), and hearing aid repairs.
http://www.audiologyonline....

Based on figures from the Director of Reimbursement for Cochlear Americas, in 2004, roughly 3,000 cochlear implant surgeries are performed annually in the US. Let's put an upper figure of 5000 cochlear implant sold annually (increasing due to more bilateral cochlear implant surgeries and just to make you happy) right now and use a figure of $50,000 per cochlear implant unit. This price includes evaluation, the surgery itself, hardware (device), hospitalization and rehabilitation (if you're not satisfied double the total amount to $100,000). 5000 units times $50,000 equals $250,000,000 (millions) annually or $500,000,000 million annually if you up the price to $100,000 per cochlear implant, just to make you happy.

According to the Food and Drug Administration’s (FDA’s) 2005 data, nearly 100,000 people worldwide have received implants. In the United States, roughly 22,000 adults and nearly 15,000 children have received them. Currently the number is estimated to be around 120,000 the number of people with cochlear implants at this point right now.
http://www.cochlearamericas...

The world’s hearing-aid market is estimated today (in 2005) with 5.5 million units sold totaling up to 4 billion dollars annually. The present growth is approx. 6% a year in volume and 9% in value according to Amplifon (www.amplifon.com). This is a true multi-billion dollars a year hearing aid industry, unlike the cochlear implant industry in the United States alone. Currently the cochlear implant industry world-wide is not quite the “multi-billion dollar a year industry” as some people would vehemently like you to believe. It is probably, altogether, very close to or around a "billion dollar a year industry" since sales growth has been around 20% a year right now. Phenomenal growth. Which means what? More babies with cochlear implants. Live with it.

The hearing aid market trumps the cochlear implant market on sheer volume alone on units sold every year in the United States alone! This is not counting the world which would be much, much higher in total as a multi-billion dollars a year hearing aid industry versus cochlear implantation rate of 5000 units a year world wide and compare that with 1.8 million hearing aids a year produced/sold in the United States. It's the hearing aid industry, worldwide, that should be the multi-billion dollars a year industry, not the *cochlear implant industry* which doesn't even touch as being the multi-billion dollars a year let alone one cochlear implant company that make up 70% of all sales made 480 million in 2007. Sure, give it another 5 to 7 years and they may become the first cochlear implant company to be a billion dollar a year company.

Do your research.